"Dennis" <doc.go.irish@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159972990.894963.213660@h48g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...
who
again.
could
mind
his


Regarding Burrell's and Abreu's contracts, we need to keep in mind that they
were backloaded contracts. Meaning the early years of said contracts were
for less than the going rate for the perceived value. This was done so the
Phils would have more money available to spend elsewhere in those early
years. IOW, the Phils got the early years (of those contracts) of Burrell
and Abreu at a bargain rate considering what their compensation would have
been through arbitration or free agency (at the time of eligibility).

As for Burrell's production this season, his per plate appearance HR rate
and RBI rate were only second on the team to Howard. Utley was third.
Although Burrell's RISP numbers were down this year (this was the only year
his were down, no reason to expect they won't rebound back to career
average), his overall production wasn't as bad as many fans think or
perceive.

For a contract/production comparison, here is a partial list of players paid
around the same as (or more than) Burrell while producing less this past
season:

Jeff Bagwell
Jim Edmonds
Luis Gonzalez
Shawn Green
Todd Helton
Derrek Lee
Edgar Renteria
Scott Rolen

I guess my point is, Burrell has been getting a lot of flack as of late but
his actual production hasn't been as bad as many fans believe. Especially
considering that he played most (if not all) of the season less than 100%
healthy. I guess with Abreu gone, Burrell has become the next "whipping
boy". Perhaps the reason is the PR department is playing the situation as
such because ownership/management wants to pare payroll even further (if
this is the case, don't be surprised if they pocket the savings). But can
anyone here honestly say that the likes of a Bourn or a Roberson can
compensate for the loss of production resulting from ditching Burrell?

BeastFish wrote:


You can't really. The problem with Burrell is expectations and
perception. Being a #1 overall, plus the guy who was supposed to make up
for losing Drew, there's tons of expectation. And because he looks SO
BAD when striking out, looking at 3rd strikes and jumping back 10 feet
on balls at th heart of the plate, it looks worse than it is. It's
especially infuriating when he has those stretches where he looks like
he gets it -- short, sweet swings and a good eye, his natural strength
driving balls without the windmilling hacks that send him all
off-kilter, the trademark of his lost periods.

A lower 1st round or lower round pick who at least didn't look confused
when slumping woudn't engender so much emnity.

-greg

"greg's impeccable blahs" wrote ...

I agree with that, and would add the "less than 100% healthy". BUT, he needs to
get fixed what ails him this off-season, not let time heal all wounds. Foot,
wrist, swing, psyche, whatever, *Get*it*fixed*.

"greg's impeccable blahs" <**@**.org> wrote in message
news:eg18as$17iu$1@netnews.upenn.edu...
but
Especially
100%
as
can


Funny thing... Burrell and Drew had virtually identical seasons, production
wise (and Drew cost $2 million more).

>I guess with Abreu gone, Burrell has become the next "whipping

You nailed it. I don't think the Phans will be satisfied until we see
a corner outfield combo of Roberson and Victorino. I'm guessing that
combo wouldn't be very productive, but I also thought Abreu was a great
player for the Phils, so what do I know....

Kyle

Dennis wrote:

For defense which wins baseball games.


He deserves a look and go from there. Going as the 4th outfielder is
fine for me.


You were the one who said Rowand wouldn't like playing LF. I'm just
saying 'Too Bad.'


That is only a general rule, when you are getting extra runs from
positions that you don't expect it (SS and 2B), you can afford less
power.


I don't know that and neither do you. Is he your leadoff guy day 1
next season? Likely not, but he could be later on in the season.


So you think the answer is scoring more runs? Pitching and Defense is
what this team needs! This team will score.


The Phils will not get Jason Schmidt. Just give it up now. He costs
too much and his history says he will be hurt.


No, Floyd has had control and success at every level, until hitting the
majors. I'm not going to give up on him after one full season.

However, on the flip side you are willing to not look at Schmidt's
history of getting hurt. He's not going to transform either.


Try for years??? One guy for one full season and the other for a few
weeks.

Scoring runs is not everything. The Phils have been at the top for a
number of years now in run scored and it got them nothing. We need to
improve our defense and pitching. Bourn will help the defense.
Schmidt would help the pitching when he is playing and his price tag is
going to stop you from filling in other problems. Let Myers and Hamels
grow and spend the money elsewhere.

PW

On Oct 5, 10:58 am, "Paul W" <pbw...@yahoo.com> wrote:

You are confusing defense with pitching. Pitching is more than 75% of
runs
being prevented. Hitting is 100% of runs being created.


Your standards are entirely too low.


I didn't say ANYTHING about him wanting to play LF. I said he doesn't
qualify because
he can't hit like a corner outfielder must. I will accept his offense
IF he is the center fielder,
a FAR more valuable defensive position. We're not talking about Douggie
Glanville here.


No, that should be an ADVANTAGE, not a reason to disadvantage yourself.


I realize that YOU don't know that.


With Charlie as manager, they would have to score 900 runs to get to
the
postseason.


I'm not saying they WILL get him, I'm giving MY TAKE. WTF?


He's been healthy enough to start 29 games each of the last *5* seasons
(averaging
more than 200 innings each season), and started 25 games 6 seasons ago.
You know his ERA over the last 5 seasons?

3.35. You know how many Phillies started 29 games, pitched 200 innings
and
had a 3.35 ERA this season? Well, Brett Myers started more than 29
games
but 1 out of 3 is not as good as 3 out of 3. Do you know the last time
a Phillies
pitcher did that? Randy Wolf is 2002. Schmidt would be the best pitcher
on
the team and has NO HISTORY OF MISSING TIME DUE TO INJURY. He has
a history of dominating. 71-38 record in his last 5 seasons.

What is your problem? You are so misinformed that I HAVE to believe you
work for the Phillies. That's what this is about, isn't it?


I'm sure Gavin Floyd will get rid of that deer-in-the-headlights look
soon, I'm
sure. He will NEVER have Cole Hamels' poise, and Hamels' is younger.
Bourn is going to learn to hit now?


No, just half of everything (in the baseball world)


Because of the other half (pitching + defense) and losing SO MANY 1-run
games. That
doesn't mean TRY to score less runs. WTF kind of logic is that?


Like where??? Not pitching, not outfield, not cather, where do you
propose
money gets spent?

Dennis

"Kurt Straub" <jkurtstraub@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:s8KdnVMJxOo3ur7YnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@comcast.com. ..

I've never seen Cost play 3rd base. But if he can defend there respectably,
then I agree with carrrying 3 catcthers. Coste can also pinch hit and spell
Howard in blowout games and against particularly tough lefties. Lieberthal
says that he would come back as a backup, and if he would take less than 1
mill/yr, i'd say let him come back. It would be great to have a backup
catcher who could fill in as a starter if the front line catcher goes on the
DL. Estrada would be welcome here too, but I dont' see how you can have
2-3 starting caliber catchers being happy sharing duty. The key would be
if Coste can get playing time at 3rd or first in addition to catching now
and then or pinch hitting. Ruiz seems to be penciled in as the starting
catcher with Coste his backup. (A platoon of Estrada and Ruiz would be look
good for the rookie catcher in his first full year.)
Phils should get a draft pick for not signing Lieberthal also.

Tony


I just saw that they intend to have Nunez penciled in as the starting 3rd
baseman for next year. This of course could change at any time. Remember,
defense is a good part of the equation of a winning team. Having a guy who
hits 25 HR but who committs 25 errors at 3rd base would'n't be that great of
an improvement. There are several minor league prospects at 3rd base,
(Cleveland has 2, White Sox, etc, etc. but I think the phils will consider
Amaris Ramirez or I'd like Freddy Sanchez. He did hit 53 doubles this year
and will probably hit 10-15 HR next year and 45 doubles. He only had 6
errors at 3rd also. But it's unknown if the Phils could win the bidding war
for him, but hitting him #2 would be great ahead of Utley and Howard.
Constanzo struggled but showed improvement in Clearwater this year. He'll
probably go to AA next year and it may be a make or break year for him.


They should have platooned Burell and Delucci this year, but a platoon of
Delucci/Conine would be fine with me in one of the corner spots. I'd like
to see Burell be healthy for a full year next year, but he seems to be part
head case, so I dont' know if it would matter. Having 100 walks as a goal
could be part of the reason for taking so many called 3rd strikes. How
stupid is that to have as a goal. A batter has to take what he is given,
and until burell causes pitcher to fear him and until he can lay off of the
outside slider, he won't be pitched to like Howard is pitched to.

Victorino did a good enough job in the #2 hole to start if they choose to
leave Rowand go. Rowand has alot of good points, but his strikeout/walk
ratio and strikeout/AB ratio isn't what you want from light/med hitting
outfielder. It would be tough to see him go, but word was that the Whitesox
would take him back and they do have a 3rd base prospect in Joshua Fields
who looks to be a 25 HR type of guy.

I think Bourne could take over the 4th outfielder spot for next year. He
covers ALOT of ground in the OF and if Conine/Delucci are kept on, then they
will need a defensive replacement along with Burell. IF Delucci moves on,
then Rowand will probably be in CF and Victorino/Conine in RF with Bourne or
some other brought in as a 4th/5th outfielder. One has to be very carefull
about sacrificing outfield speed and defense for offensive power. Chasing
one down in the gap can be just as important as hitting a HR. A speedy
outfielder may save as many runs with his defense as compared to a slow
outfielder as the slugging outfielder creates with his bat.



The importance of relief pitching was apparently overlooked by Gillick this
year.
Ricke White, Ryan Franklin, Julio Santana, etc.??? Gopher ball pitchers. I
think Arthur Rhodes was a good acquisition, but he may be done, depending on
his arm. Geary really came around and was one of the reasons for the
phils second half surge. Geary did well, as did Smith in the times he
pitched. I've lost confiedence in Fultz but he could easily rebound. It
seems he was pitching with a sore arm part of the time. Madsen needs to
somehow get his pitches down around the knees and get better movement. He
is resilient and able to pitch at any time, so he will probably have a job
again next year. I think he has good stuff, and hopefully he'll learn a
slider or a forkball to go along with fast/curve/change. Fabio Castro will
probably start next year at AAA to get innings under his belt. Probably a
mid-year call up. Gordon will be the closer again next year.

The Mets and the phils scored close to the same number of runs, and towards
the end, the mets/phils had similar starting rotations, but the mets flat
out had the much better bullpen. Phils need to find some guys who can step
in and stop the bleeding for a few innings. Perhaps they need to go and get
a few quality guys. Joe Bisenius made great improvements and throws about
96 so he could be a help next year. Perhaps A.J. Happ or Brian Mazone could
be effective in relief for a year or two while the starting rotation gets
built up around Hamels and Myers. I think Eude Brito will either get a
long look in spring training or else get traded. I dont' think they feel
that he has the repotoir of pitches to do the job in the majors, and what he
sneeks by the hitters in AAA, the big leaguers hit.




I dont' think that Phils will be able to outbid the Yanks or Mets, but I
think Jason Schmidt would be a free agent this year.
He would do fine along with Hamels and Myers. When we look around at the
teams who are 'pitching rich', usually they want to stay that way. Thus the
phils may be best to continue to draft quality pitching and to build at
least that part of their arsenal through their farm system. Face it, if
they would have had a 20 game winner and a 17 game winner along with Myers,
Hamels and Leiber/Wolf, they would have been in the playoffs and been in a
good race with the mets for the division crown. Pitching is what wins
ballgames and pennants. Phils need to improve that part of the team and
not loose too much from the offensive end. They need to improve the bullpen
and get at least one major quality arm for the rotation.

TonyG

"TonyG" <agraybill71460@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:NeFVg.6012$Y24.2393@newsread4.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
last
respectably,
spell
Lieberthal
the
be
look


I'd pass on Estrada. He'll be 31, that's getting a bit old in "catcher
years". He's not that good offensively (too many DP's, little power, slow,
never walks). Lieberthal actually had a slightly better year than Estrada.
Estrada really had only one good year, with the rest being somewhat
mediocre. And considering his teammates publicly criticized his desire, I'd
say "pass".