"Dano" <janeanddano@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xs6dnRLi4PAM_bfYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
think
here

Good. Why replace one dimwit with a slightly less dimwit?

McDuck wrote:

Well Torre's record with young players is a pretty good one. I've
always noted that he's sort of a snob. If a kid had some advanced
billing Joe will treat him properly. I mean Jeter, Soriano, Mo,
Mendoza, Nick Johnson, Pettitte (he really blossomed under Joe), Cano
and Melky were for the most part highly touted prospects. He did fine
with Juan Rivera as well but he got hurt in his rookie season. Yet he
trusted him enough to start him in 2002 ALDS. Even Ledee who didn't
pan out received a lot of support before he was traded for Justice.

And while he abuses veteran setup men like there's no tomorrow, he's
always been very careful with his starters and for the most part with
Mo until the postseason. This season Chien-Ming Wang has shattered his
career high innings total this season with 218 (his previous high was
169) but he ranked 131st in PAP this season while averaging about 92.1
pitches per game. Torre allowed no Category 3 starts and only went to
Cat 2 only 8 times which is remarkable for a pitcher who logged that
many starts in a breakout season.

Where Joe clearly lacks skill is in optimizing bullpen usage and his
distrust of marginal young players like Andy Phillips but looking at
his season now perhaps Joe was right all along as I'm not sure if he's
any more than a AAAA player.


It's strange that arguing with Joe Page about his drinking and late
night activities was the final straw for McCarthy before he resigned as
the Yankee manager.

On 9 Oct 2006 21:01:38 -0700, "BadgerBC"
<neilrichardson3819@hotmail.com> wrote:


First of all, I'm very happy that Mr. Torre was retained. He's a good
man and I hope he does well (though personally, I wish he'd finish
behind Boston, of course).


I had listed some young players who blossomed under Mr. Torre, and
totally forgot to include Soriano. Can't believe I missed him! And
Johnson and Rivera are legitimate adds too.


This is a minority view and rather cruel in a way, but I don't have a
problem with Mr. Torre's abuse of setup men. Those kinds of pitchers
(a) only tend to have short spurts of success anyway, and (b) aren't
the types of pitchers you build around anyway. I'd rather see a
manager get a few great months of a Tanyon Sturtze and then burn him
out, rather than gingerly nursing a guy who's just mediocre for two
years. Abusing a Papelbon or Wang is a whole other matter, but I'm
not that concerned about the long-term future of the middle guys.

-Bismo.

On 9 Oct 2006 21:01:38 -0700, "BadgerBC"
<neilrichardson3819@hotmail.com> quacked:


Don't claim much expertise on Torre, and perhaps I was just repeating
stuff I've heard. But I thought that Torre seemed not to appreciate
Wang in 2005, letting him start only out of near desperation. I agree
Torre must have been fine with the young championship teams --- I was
thinking more of integrating the young guys with the vets. You
mentioned Phillips, and I did hear a lot of criticism there, and he
seemed not to want much to do with Cabrera until he had no choice. But
some of this is Torre's tendency to play the stars every inning of
every game --- even Posada until recently.

Anyway, my skepticism about the firing of Torre was legitimate, it
seems --- I'm still being a bit cautious about his non-firing <g>. I
think he is a good guy and good for baseball and probably a better
choice for NYY right now than Piniella. But his day surely is near ---
I'd guess 2007 is his last year unless he wins it all, and even then
it might be his last year. I'd like him to go out on his own power ---
he deserves the chance.

-McDuck

McDuck wrote:

Well Joe was the one who insisted on bringing up Derek in 1996 after
Tony Hernandez got hurt. George wanted the Yanks to trade for Felix
Fermin (how funny would that have been?). Wang was promoted because
Wright got hurt (shocking) but last year there wasn't a spot because of
contracts. The rotation was RJ-Moose-Pavano-Kevin Brown-Wright before
Wang was called up. Melky was a desperation move last season but not
so much this year. Joe handled him as well as I would've. He tried him
in both corner OF spots and decided to use him in LF because he looked
better there than RF despite his arm strength. You have to remember
that Melky is really young. He was a completely overmatched 20 year
old in 2005 when he got embarrassed and Joe really shielded him early
on this year by matching him against pitchers he could handle first.
The way he handled Cano last year was good for the most part. The guys
in question are the 24th 25th roster types that cause angst among the
fans in blogs. Sturtze, Bubba types that he falls in love with at
times are the real sources of contention. However, he won't bury good
prospects for these guys though. People bitch because they want to see
Colter Bean or Kevin Thompson instead these two but let's face it
neither one is even grade C+ prospect let alone a B- ones. Of his 11
seasons, 2004 was the only year that I can recall when he didn't
integrate a young player. But that was the year when the system was
barren after the Javy trade and there was a number of injuries to young
arms.


2006: Melky; 2005: Wang, Cano; 2003: Juan Rivera; 2002: Nick Johnson;
2001: Soriano


I agree he's a lame duck. Piniella is abuses young pitchers and right
now the strength of the farm system is the young arms who'll start in
Scranton WB next season. For whatever faults Joe may have he protects
young arms. Even today's interview on WFAN website, Joe explained his
reasons for why he chose not to start Wang on short rest and I agreed
with him completely. When a kid survives a torn labrum surgery (that's
a virtual death sentence for pitchers as you know) and a mysterious
rotator cuff injury last year (we still don't know if it was torn or
frayed), only Dusty Baker would be stupid enough to risk his health.
Joe's managing wasn't the reason why they lost. They got outplayed at
every facet of the game and it happens.

Dave Bismo wrote:


You know I'm pretty close to McDuck in terms of protecting pitchers and
I've made the same argument even though I still think Joe could
optimize the bullpen usage a little better. Some time ago in an
exchange with Gnork this was the same rationale I made on why I thought
a manager had to protect starters. Sure we certainly don't have an
accurate picture of what the right threshold is in terms of abuse as I
think that could be individually determined (some might tire out on 90
on a given day while another might tire on 108) but let's say a good
pitching coach can sort of see a starter lose his mechanics a little
and isn't finishing off pitches, why should a manager try to squeeze
out that extra 10 pitches? As you point out, it's certainly a lot
easier to get 2 or 3 mil setup men take some abuse than letting a bona
fide starter just on economic basis alone. A decent no.3 starter
nowadays command 10-11 mil in the FA market. And other than a few
elite setup men or perhaps closers-in-waiting (Duane Ward, Mo, K-Rod,
Lidge) there's just no reliable way to predict how a reliever would do
from year to year. IMHO finding the right setup men is a crap shoot
and that's why I've always believed in quantity of power arms in AAA.
Heck the Angels struck gold in 2002 with Donnelly and Weber and later
came up with Shields who wasn't cut out to be a starter. However often
times it seems many relievers' fluctuate in terms of performance year
to year.

On 10 Oct 2006 18:44:01 -0700, "BadgerBC"
<neilrichardson3819@hotmail.com> quacked:



I thought Piniella was better at keeping his pitchers healthy in TB,
although I can't say I followed him too closely. He was a killer for
the Mariners (no idea for CN --- didn't follow them).

And I never had a problem with Torre letting his pitchers go too long.
He seems to me to know Mussina's limits. I agree that pitching Wang on
short rest would have been nutty. I'm not sure NYY got beat in every
facit of the game, but they sure got beat in Comerica with respect to
starting pitching. And I was impressed with the Tigers' outfield
defense, for whatever that is worth.

-McDuck

McDuck wrote:

Well Kazmir at age 21 finished 32nd in PAP in 2005. He had 12 Category
3 starts IIRC. I'm not going to assume that's the reason for his arm
troubles as that's just not fair but I don't trust him to come within
15 feet of Phil Hughes and Tyler Clippard.