All the Jays have to play for is Roy's Cy Young award (and of course 90
wins according to MH) So what does Gibbons do he uses Ryan for 2
innings a day before a Halladay start.

The team and the fans could get something out of this miserable season
if Roy gets a Cy but the manager is doing everything he can to stop it.

well, if ya have a look at Santana's numbers, you will realize the Roy is a
real long shot anyway.


--
I never read email at the Yahoo address!



<jchristow@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157519942.962152.64080@m73g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com...

In article <1157519942.962152.64080@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.c om>,
<jchristow@hotmail.com> wrote:

And what, pray tell, was the outcome of that game?

Oh, that's right - THEY WON. And the closer hadn't worked in 4 days. But,
no, let's save him and blow a close game, because tomorrow MIGHT be a close
game..

What if we lost that game, and then Roy's game was a blowout (either way)?
Then you'd be here complaining that he wasn't using the closer enough..



Ah, so THAT's what was so great about the Ash era - we had a few Cy Youngs..
and finished 3rd every year..

MH

MH wrote:
And what happened the next night -oh that's right - THEY LOST and if
Gibbons only used Ryan for one inning they might have won that game
too. That's how you use closers.



Why would I critsize him if he used his closer properly. Ryan is lucky
he got the save though because Gibby would have punched him out.
Nothing like bare-knuckle discipline to keep your bullpen sharp.



Not like in the JP era. The Jays are so much better than 3rd.
6 years, one winning season; send him to the hall. Ricciardi's the
only gm in baseball that could make Gord Ash look good.

They only have to go 17-5 to reach your predicted 90 wins! It's a shoe
in. And there were doubters.

In article <1157607943.849014.134500@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups. com>,
<jchristow@hotmail.com> wrote:

Says who? Maybe the last 10 years, where closers care only about their
stats. For the longest time, closers pitched multiple innings.

And what if Ryan doesn't come in in the 8th 3 nights ago? Then we lose that
one, and (maybe) win for Halladay.

Do you pass up $10 today, because you MIGHT get $10 tomorrow instead?

Oh, that's right, I forgot - you can predict the future... AFTER IT HAPPENS.



????




Just curious - do you actually ENJOY cheering for a team? Any team? At the
time I made the statement, they were on pace to win 86-87 games. I said with
a few breaks, 90 was possible. They are currently on pace to win 84 games.
With a few breaks, 86-87 is still possible.

Just a quick question for ya: find out the average MLB team payroll during
the Ash years, and how much the Jays spent. Then, compare that to JP. I
think you'll find that in relative dollars, JP has had LESS (except for this
year) than Ash had. Yet, he's had more or less the same record.

10 years ago, the Yankees were spending $100-110, and the Jays had $45-50.
Last year, the Yankees spent $180-190, and JP had $45-50. Even now, we're
only 16th in the league in payroll, IIRC. We're not much different from
Baltimore, yet we're better than they are. Boston's spending $120M vs. $75M
and they're holding on by a thread to be 2 games ahead of us. Wow, Epstein
is SOME genius!

You're Gord Ash's newphew, aren't you?

MH

MH wrote:

That's right, for the last 10 years closers have come in for 1 inning.
Thats how you you use them. Says who? Ever DECENT manager in baseball.



Do you really think a Marcum win is as valueble to this team as a
Hallady win?

In case you didn't notice they're out of the race and on their way to
another mediocre Ricciardi finish. Roy has carried this team. He
deserves to be rewarded. It's all they have left to play for: 20 wins.
cy award ( all though that's now not going to happen either)


No, I reward my ace by giving him all the support I can

?? _Gibbens likes to fight players - bare-knuckle discipline


What do you have against Hallady? What do you have against winning Cy
Youngs? Isn't it a sound measure of pitching excellence. Didn't he win
a Cy 2 years ago for another JP losing team? Did you complain then?


I'm a jays fan, just not a blind devotee. I don't think years of
mediocrity and failure should be rewarded. I like teams like the NE
Patriots with solid accountable leadership, a team first philosophy and
a culture of excellence,.

There are 2 GMs with over 5 years tenure and no post season trips. JP
and Dan Dowd of Colorado. But the later has a caveat. Owner Charlie
Monfort after a 3rd dui found Jesus. He then hired Dowd whom was short
on baseball accumen but strong on religion. They now only actively
pursue christian players. Dowd has a job because he's doing what the
owner wants and it has nothing to do with winning baseball. Why does
Ricciardi have a job? Becuase he's done 2 things Ted Rogers really
wants.

1) He's brought finances under control. The Jays make money.

2) He's done a great job of making guys like you think he's doing a
great job. Which also contributes to point 1.

Like Charlie Brown trusting Lucy with the football. Every year you buy
the April rhetoric, "this is going to be the years we compete" and
every July you buy the excuses,
2005 - "If Halladay doesn't get hurt - 2006 "We're really building for
next year."

The truth is this JP sucks. He's done a terrible job of fielding a
team. They have the worst farm system in basball. He didn't win last
year. He's not competing this year and he won't win next year. But as
long as YOU buy the snake oil he's going to sell it and the rest of us
are going to be left with a bad taste.

The Marlins are in the hunt and they have a payroll of 14mil. It not
all about money. It's about the system. In order for lower budget
teams to compete they have to a solid farm system. The Jays have one
prospect, as rated by FOX sports, in their top 100 prospects; rated
64th is rhp Josh Banks. We have so much to look forward too.

Next year the Twins starting pitching will probably include; Santana
(probable CY winner) Liriano (RoY candidate) Bonser(2004 draft pick)
and Matt Garza(2005 draft pick)
Their entire combined salary is less than what JP pays Burnett and
they're all better pitchers. That's how you build a team.

How do the Twins do it? They use real live scouts not a scouting
service. In order to cut budget Ricciardi dumped some brilliant guys
with great eyes for talent. They're now all over the league. He is to
blue Jays scouting what Defenbaker was to the Avro Arrow.


Theo Epstein did something JP Riciarrdi will never ever do. Win a
worlds series.


lol, you're a funny guy Charlie.

In article <1157946242.951502.61430@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.c om>,
<jchristow@hotmail.com> wrote:

[cut]


And for 50+ years, closers didn't come in for just one inning.. I'm sure
you'd be the one complaining if Gibbons didn't leave Ryan in for 1.1 innings
some game where we lost as a result..


Isn't a win a win? Regardless of who gets it?



I'd love to see Roy get another Cy.



Which includes losing the night before to put MORE pressure on him to win?
And having a great closer sit idly by while he wins 7-1?



Show some proof that anything like this has actually happened.



I have nothing against HalladAy. I like him a lot. However, playing
favourites is NOT the way to have happy players. I.e. Ok, BJ's only going to
pitch for Roy, not for anyone else. Go. You think the players would go for
that?



I see. And what league are they in? And, how many championships have they
won?



Not sure how I contribute to the Jays bottom line.. I guess those 3 cents
they get from my MLB TV subscription..



Yup, and it's pretty amazing too. They're the Ottawa Senators (of a few
years ago) of MLB: years and years of high picks will eventually yield
dividends.


Hey, I'm not saying Minnesota is a bad team. In fact, I wouldn't mind hiring
their GM to work here. Think he'll take the job?



After how many years of NOT winning? How many years did Epstein get?

MH

MH wrote:

And the mound was 6" higher, they had 4 man rotations and blacks
weren't allowed to play. Things evolve.

Ryan didn't come in for 1.1 innings he came in for 2 innings rendering
him usless for the next game. This is my whole point. Gibbons totally
mismanaged it. He brought him in the beginning of the 8th they were up
6-2 forchrisake and they blow out the closer for the next 2 games. It's
indefensable. They didn't even need him. The next night HalladAy leaves
in the 7th up 2-1 when they do need him and he was spent the night
before protect a 4 run lead for 2 innings. Brilliant!


I respectfully disagree. I think HalladAy getting 20 wins or a Cy would
have been a positive the team could take solace in.


You seem to be conradicting yourself. "A win is a win" - "50 years ago
they blew outt closers all the time protect 4 run leads"


THEY WERE UP BY 4 RUNS!!!! You keep going on about what a great GM JP
is. Surely a genuis like him can find someone in the bullpen to hold
the mighty KC Royals at bay for 3 outs.
You said they were going to win 90 games can you really do that with no
bullpen?
Come on, He admitted it. He fought Lilly in the dugout tunnel and
challenged Hillenbrand. I thought you were paying attention.
I said use him properly. Don't roll him out there 4 2 innings
protecting a 4 run lead. Use him when it means something, like
protecting a 2-1 lead regardless of who's pitching but especilly if rOy
is on the mound.


They're in the AFC East and they've won 3 championships in the last 5
years. They do it with great leadship; innovation, accountability and
collaboration. I believe leadership style is a contagion that
infiltrates an entire organization. Pat Gillick had it. There was a
confidence throughout the organization players throughout the league
wanted to play here. The same can't be said of todays Jays, just ask
Vernon Wells.

He convinced guys like you they have a good and that it's always all
about next year.
Don't you miss the Jays playing meaningful games in September?
I doubt it. I don't think Godfrey's smart enough to offer it it to him.
It seems like like Paul G. too is a JP devotee.


In Theo's first year the Red Sox went to game 7 of the ALSC. In his
second year he won it all.
Last year they lost the ALDS to eventual series winner Chicago.

3 post season appearances and 1 Worlds Series in his first 3 years as
GM. All before his 30th birthday. Not bad.

JP is 47 in 6 years he's done nothing. The one thing he has in common
with Epstein is there both from Boston.