Unlike our fallen heros they NEVER beat themselves! Good pitching,
Excellent "D" and a super Bull pen! Also they don't pay for "hired
guns" of better referred to as free agents. Tig's lead now down to 1/2
game! Hawk's Southsiders sucking air! DEFENSE wins! The last time we
actually won it ALL in '54 we had a no-hit shortstop George Strickland
and a light hitting catcher Jim Hegan. But both were great defensive
players! These guys were such bad hitters that when Bob Lemon pitched
he used to bat 7th! But of course we also had maybe or my opinion, the
greatest pitching staff of ALL time! Bob Feller was our 5th starter
that year. Art Houtteman won 15 games as our 4th starter. Look it up!
Lemon and Wynn both won 23 games! Mike Garcia won 19 and the lowest ERA
in the league that year. Bull pen? Ray Narleskie and Don Mossi or
"ears" Hal Newshowser won 7 games as the long reliever. Steve Gromack
was there for losing causes. Al Lopez was the manager. Big hitter was
Al Rosen. Doby, Wertz, Avila, and Al Smith were big contributors!
September 13 at the old stadium in '54 Lemon beat the Yanks 4-2 then
Early beat the Yanks in the 2nd game 3-1! Tribe won 111 games that
year! Actually we DIDN'T win it "all" as we lost 4 straight to the
Giants in the W.S.!

"wolfagain" <wolf@provide.net> wrote in message
news:1158871417.301502.158190@m7g2000cwm.googlegro ups.com...

And what exactly does any of that have to do with you switching allegiance
to the Twins? I've been a Tribe fan since I understood there was such a
thing as professional baseball and NOTHING will ever change that. But, then
I'm a true fan. I guess the same can't be said for you. Screw the Twins!

~~
"I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life.
It's just been too intelligent to come here."

--Arthur C. Clarke

"wolfagain" <wolf@provide.net> wrote in message
news:1158871417.301502.158190@m7g2000cwm.googlegro ups.com...

I'll simply root for whoever is playing the Yankees and the Mets.

If it's a Yankee vs. Mets World Series....Here's a stock tip:
Anheuser-Busch.

AMEN Brother! Indians or noone. Forget the Twins.

Just call me Mr. Obvious but the problem with this team is NOT Mark
Shapiro, but rather his friendship with Eric Wedge. Besides the
young roster, this team plays with a noticable lack of intensity
(not to mention names, but Franklin and Jhonny come to mind).

It appears as if Wedge has lost this team. I think we have a lot of
exciting young players to look at, but the lacklustre and uninspired
performance of some of the players auditioning for next year is
disgusting. Or perhaps it is simply that many of them don't have
what it takes. Obviously, Joe Inglett is not A-ROD, but why can't
more of the youngsters with more raw talent play with the same
intensity?
The answer to this usually comes back to the manager and the
organization. So we have a GM and staff who can really bring in
minor league talent at the PLAYER level. And no coaching staff in
place to finish them off.
Isn't it time to look beyond this organization for someone to
inspire confidence in these young players and actually TEACH them or
we will see a mass exodus of good talent when their contracts expire
(like C.C).

CC should have 14 or 15 wins by now with a solid defense
--
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"William Wilson" <some@one.com> wrote in message
news:451461d2$0$13695$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

Mr. Obvious needs to realize a few things:

Shapiro is the GM. He's boss. He's in charge.
Shapiro put this team together.
Shapiro brought in AB to play 3rd base.
Shapiro ignores and refuses to accept his mistake.
Shapiro has players playing out of position, and makes questionable trades
to cover up the mess that AB at 3rd has started.
Shapiro left Sowers in Buffalo and went after Jason Johnson.
Shapiro set up this year's bullpen.
Shapiro is very responsible for the 85-90 losses this team will incur.

And others....Wedge and his coaches included.
Firing Wedge and his staff is probably not out of the question.

But Shapiro is not blameless.
He simply uses the Indians perennial motto:
Wait Till Next Year!!!!

> Mr. Obvious needs to realize a few things:

Basically, yeah.


True.


The Indians have a prominent history of bringing in injury-prone
retreads. Not all trades work out. Shapiro also brought Grady Sizemore
through a shrewd but unpopular trade and got Travis Halfner on an
absolute fleecing of John Hart and the Rangers.

If you want to put Mark Shapiro on trial, give the man a fair evaluation.


If trading a popular OF player in Coco Crisp to get Andy Marte isn't
admitting his mistake that Aaron Boone isn't a solution for any length
of time, then I don't know what is.

Just because he hasn't gotten on the radio or anything doesn't mean that
he's not working to fix the problems that the team has.


To which trade are you referring? Coco Crisp was a decent player, but
we have no need for him (and do have a need for a 3B, so we traded for
one of the best, using Boston's need for a Damon replacement as leverage).


Not a bad decision at the time. You'll notice that Jason Johnson isn't
on the team anymore. You'll notice that Sowers, however, is. Good
managers admit their mistakes and don't hold onto them: Shapiro seems to
have done so.


If you scroll up in the NG, you'll see that most of us agreed that the
bullpen contracts were ridiculously high and that we couldn't afford
them. We all said that these teams were overpaying for too little
proven talent.

Well, we were all proven wrong. Good proven bullpen talent is
expensive, even outside of the closer. Shapiro assuredly knows that we
have to shore up our bullpen, or even rebuild it. He'll spend the rest
of the season testing what he has, consider his options, and use that
knowledge in the FA market. Where, I might add, he's been very
successful (and has won GM of the Year).


Obviously. Could another manager have done better, IMHO, definitely
not. Shapiro is the reason that we damn near won the division last
year, and only a few years after dismantling a very successful team that
needed to be dismantled right then to get some value.

If you want to blame someone (or something), blame Cleveland and its
lack of size to afford the talent that Shapiro needs to win a division.
Do you think Shapiro should be fired? Do you think someone else would
have done a better job with the constraints that Dolan probably put on
him? If not, then support the man. If so, please give me a name.


No, probably not. Wedge, IMHO, hasn't shown himself to be an
outstanding MLB manager.


He's not blameless, but I doubt anyone else could've done better (and,
most, would have done worse).

I want you all to think of something... The '97 Orioles were in a
similar situation as the '00 Indians: aging, overpaid, etc. Shapiro
took over the team, knew that the time for a firesale was right now, and
sold off very popular portions of the team for lots of young people. He
was *extremely* successful, and rebuilt our entire farm system. Some of
the talent worked (Grady Sizemore, Travis Halfner) and some of it didn't
(Brandon Phillips). We had a run at the playoffs with a solid young
team, and we're a few players away from retooling to a playoff run next
year.

Oh, and the Orioles? Well, you saw what happened. They got older,
worse, and still overpaid. The franchise hasn't recovered yet.

Make no mistake: Shapiro is the reason we're talking about the playoffs
right now, and why we we're close enough to think we could do it.

"wolfagain" <wolf@provide.net> wrote


Then take yourself and the unlimited exclamation points on over to
alt.sports.baseball.mn-twins.

toodles

"Jim" <korski@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ajHRg.1703$pq4.1038@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
yet.

I'll leave the rehashed Shapiro love, poor Dolan/Cleveland and
"Boy the Farm system is great" stuff behind, and just say this:

The only playoffs "We" are talking about in 2006 yet again will not
include the Tribe. Shapiro's record is perfect there.

And any team approaching 85 losses is not close to playoff caliber.

But - WAIT TILL NEXT YEAR !!!!!!!

Steve

> I'll leave the rehashed Shapiro love, poor Dolan/Cleveland and

I personally don't think you can do that with any fairness to the issue.
As I'm sure you know, life isn't that black and white.

I'll admit it: Mark Shapiro has never led the Indians to the playoffs.
Repeat: During his reign in the last 5 years, the Indians have never
made the playoffs.

Ok. We got that out of the way. Now we can decide if that's his fault
or not.

In all of the text you snipped, it's clear that I don't think it's his
fault. More importantly, I don't think the Indians are a better-managed
organization with a replacement at the helm.

He's had 5 years to make the playoffs. I'll say that two of those (02
and 03) were rebuilding years when he didn't really have a chance...
I'll just assume that you're OK dropping those as potential playoff
years. Let me know if you think otherwise.

'04 was a legitimate year, but the team was younger than the Twins, who
were in a similar position but were a few years more advanced. The team
just wasn't in the oven long enough. I don't think that was his fault,
though I can see why others would disagree.

He got 93 wins in '05. That's typically good enough for the Playoffs,
so I won't blame him there. I don't like how we lost 5 out of 6 at
crunch time at the end, but a bunch of those were to the White Sox.
They pounded everyone else right after that, too, so it seemed to just
be unlucky (you can't blame Cleveland sports luck on Shapiro

This year, we underachieved due to an imploding bullpen and a few other
factors. However, look at the division. The Twins are slated to win 96
games. Chicago's looking to win 98. That means that we'd have to win
*97* games to make the playoffs (and the wildcard, at that). Jesus, 97
games?! Give us any bullpen in the MLB and we don't win 97 games. We
can't resign Howry, keep Wickman, and maybe add another reliever to win
97 games. Hell, resigning Millwood wouldn't have gotten us there, either.

Really, I think it's this simple: Given x dollars, a good GM can put
together a better team than a bad GM. I don't think he had enough
dollars to get the free agents we needed to make a run at 97 wins. I
also think another manager would have done worse.

We got a good team right when everyone else in our division not named
Kansas City got excellent teams.

We didn't make the playoffs. But by your logic, if we won 96 games and
improved on last season, Shapiro should be fired.

I'm disappointed in this season, but you don't fire a manager because of
one season where things should have gone right, but didn't. Come back
next year, around this time. If Shapiro doesn't learn from his
mistakes, I'll jump on the boat with you. But, for what he did with
this team, I think he has earned an off-year.

"Jim" <korski@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:WmURg.2051$Cq3.495@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...

I never said fire him. I just don't think that he is the Genius others here
think he is.
He got Johnson and left Sowers in AAA. That's his job. He messed it up, and
it
cost several (at least) games. He stuck with Boone at 3rd, again, until the
season was
over. That cost several games. He brought in Mota. That cost several games.
He gave Phillips to the Reds. He brought in Marte. Who "obviously" is the
next
3rd base superstar, but .222 is what he's done for the team in 2006.

The team has lacked fundamentals, defense and hustle since he's taken over.

And let the blame for the bullpen be spread around.
Wedge, Willis, Shapiro, and the pitchers can share the blame here.

I won't blame him for SS, and was amazed that his 1B platoon worked so well.

I made numerous posts about 2006 early the year. I've been proven right.
They had a 93 win team, and did absolutely nothing to improve it for this
year.
I SWAG'd 87 wins. Shoulda guessed losses.

And yes, the Twins, Tigers and CWS have good records.
But had the Tribe gone anywhere but south in 2006 there records would be a
bit worse.

Steve