And one more thing. The most classic of classic point guards, express a
clear "I'm in charge" vibe, and don't question themselves, two closely
related areas where "CapNKirk" has yet to really establish himself.

In article <2006100619161550073-otherwise3@maccom>,
BoneDry <otherwise3@mac.com> wrote:


Multiple threads now. Obbie?




You just described Stephon Marbury to a T. He's in charge -- hell, his
knucklehead cousins are running the Knicks marketing department. He
doesn't question himself, ever.

Maybe he *is* the greatest point guard in the game!




Kirk is about the typical PG height, weight, skill set (layups, no
dunks; jumpshots; drive and kick) and ballhandling acumen. He's made no
secret of the fact that he likes to pass rather than score.

If you're talking about an "I'm in charge vibe" in a good way, well, I
would guess there are three of those in the league right now (two if
Cassell goes back to being himself) and not a whole lot in history. And
that's impossible -- utterly impossible -- to measure. I have the same
info that you have -- snippets of newspaper stories, interviews, general
"feeling". And I don't have the slightest clue if Jamaal Tinsley has an
"in charge vibe" or questions himself.

Kirk can be more assertive, clearly. But your criteria is meaningless
when Marbury, Baron Davis and Steve Francis qualify based on their "in
charge vibe" and lack of introspection.

On 2006-10-06 19:49:20 -0600, Granville Waiters' Ghost <x@x.x> said:


Meaningless criteria, except for the fact that you know exactly what
I'm talking about when it comes to Kirk. Call off the straw dogs man.

Use some other vocab if you like, but clearly Kirk was expected to step
up as leader last year by Pax and Skiles and didn't. I call that lack
of "take charge vibe". And Kirk went through periods when Skiles
pointedly said some of his players he would never expect, were losing
confidence. Or words to that effect. I called that questioning himself
too much. You want some other words for the same thing, be my guest.

But, Obbie Wan, you know what I was saying, right?

Granville Waiters' Ghost wrote:

Ease up on Baron! Ghost is right about all the other stuff. Just
don't include Baron in Steve Francis or Stephon Marbury's class.
Baron's lead his team to the playoffs multiple times and his deal is
lack of health....

Rizzo

BoneDry wrote:

Dude,

Scoreboard. What more did you want from Kirk? They gave the heat all
they could handle with NOTHING inside (unless you count Sweetney as a
presence)....SO, that means the guard play and SF matched up well with
Wade, Williams, Payton Posey and Antoine Walker.....How many all-star
appearences do those guys have among them and Kirk, Gordon, Nocioni,
Deng gave them fits.....But I guess Kirk didn't "step up"....Maybe he
can try dunking on Shaq for you.

Rizzo

On 2006-10-06 21:12:16 -0600, "Frank Rizzo" <champ91917@yahoo.com> said:


I've been whistled for starting a new thread unnecessarily, so I'll
make amends, here. Back to the original question which was about
tweeners and did the Bulls's have any position players, or what.

I agree that a good case has been made that Kirk isn't really a
tweener, and does "have a position", and that he's a point guard. SPM
is also more a SF than a tweener. So I agree with GWG on those points.
"Classic" point guard I'm reserving for guys like Stockton who had
every part of the package, but that's admittedly stretching the
"criteria" a bit, so forget I brought it up.

Frank and I disagree on whether the Fro is really a C or a tweener.

After that, are a bunch of players who seem to me to all have a quality
or dimension that makes them misfits for standard position definitions.
Maybe that doesn't necessarily make them all tweeners, but there's
something about them that has to be gamed for, or planned for when it
comes to match-ups. Not that Skiles can't make out a lineup that
somehow works nonetheless...

FWIW, and whatever thread it belongs in, Kirk may yet grow into the
kind of leader Skiles wants him to be, despite uneven 05-06 fulfillment
of that role. Or maybe they will accept Kirk for what he brings, and
look to someone else for a particular kind of team leadership. They
covered their bets this year bringing in PJ and Griff.

The teams' real floor leader by example down the stretch and into the
playoffs last year was Chapu. But he's too crazy to be the coach on the
court that Pax/Skiles would like.

On 2006-10-06 23:45:18 -0600, BoneDry <otherwise3@mac.com> said:


Check that.
Supposed to be Denger is more a SF than a tweener which is what GWG was
saying...

SPM on the other hand...
(where did all these empties come from?)

Tweener all the way.

In article <2006100623451816807-otherwise3@maccom>,
BoneDry <otherwise3@mac.com> wrote:



Well, there goes that. I really wasn't trying to be passive aggressive.
We've now had two disagreements about the meaning of words:

"Tweener", which I've always thought of as "too small to play PF, to
slow to cover SFs." You have a different meaning, and since you first
used the term, I should have asked for clarification.

And for "classic" -- I mean, there's no way that it = "legendary" in my
book, and in this case, I was the one who stated it. Terry Porter was a
"classic" PG to me. Dennis Johnson. Guys who you look at and say, that
thar is a point guard. Neither was their team leader (Porter moreso than
DJ, but that was Clyde's team, and Buck Williams was their leader dude).
Doc Rivers was another "classic" PG to me. No way Doc could lead a bad
team to anything.

By "classic", I simply mean what I stated about Kirk: he has the
traditional skillset, physical attributes, toughness, etc. Nothing more.
Classic in the sense of traditional, the way shooting his gun in the air
is a classic Stephen Jackson move, not that a '57 Chevy is a classic car.

BoneDry wrote:

Please enlighten the ignorant (me)...Who is chapu and SPM?

Rizzo

"Frank Rizzo" <champ91917@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160230352.419064.176260@c28g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...

Chapu = Nocioni:
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...bulls-headlines
From the layup section of the article: Skiles hung the "Noce" nickname on
Andres Nocioni two seasons ago. Nocioni consistently protested, saying he
preferred his childhood nickname of "Chapu" after a Mexican cartoon
character. Skiles finally is calling Nocioni "Chapu." "We didn't have a
sitdown," Skiles said. "But he's letting us know that's his nickname by that
tattoo on his leg."

SPM (Swiss Ponytail Man) = Thabo.. now just SM, it seems:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/photo?s...2_pm&prov=getty