Overpaid? Not his fault and he was going to take a salary reduction to
play for The Sox.

Not clutch? 1) Who cares. He plays for The yanks. 2) It's a myth. He
has great RISP numbers

Sucks in the playoffs? See 1) above and he has had playoff success
before.

The McSlappy incident? I can see that...but again who cares? It cost
the Yanks a player in scoring position.

Arrogance? I don't really see it and as for people hating him cause
he's good-looking...they probably do. He's the David Beckham of
Baseball. He can do no right. Good thing he's not married to a film
star or something.

On 10 Oct 2006 16:52:12 -0700, "Magnus, Robot Fighter"
<pavelb1@cox.net> wrote:


I don't care about that.


The problem with citing these kinds of stats are questions like, "When
are the runners in scoring position?" There's not really one stat
that clearly defines clutchness. It is interesting, though, that in
the 12 1/2 playoff games since his homer in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS,
A-Rod hasn't driven in a single run. Anyway, I know this is
subjective, but damn, I watch a hell of a lot of Yankees and Red Sox
games, and there is no way anyone can convince me that Ortiz and Jeter
aren't clutch--or that A-Rod is. That doesn't mean that the former
don't fail in clutch spots sometimes, or that the latter always
strikes out, but by and large, there are many more Ortiz and Jeter
"Moments."


See above.


It's not so much the play itself as how he did it. Whoever
photoshopped the purse on A-Rod's arm was a genius.


It's not so much the arrogance as his overall personality. A-Rod
strikes me as a consummate politician. A phony. A guy who's always
looking at how he's gonna look to everyone else. The way he kept
trailing Jeter around in 2004 to make it look like they were pals.
The image of him wearing a suit in that hotel room in Boston at 1 AM.
The "I'm the captain of the Rangers" schtick when he was really
engineering a trade (and had been undermining his manager/coaches).
He also has a propensity to over-analyze himself publicly, leading to
stupid statements like the one about him being the only player truly
dedicated to working out, or calling out his other highly-paid Yankee
teammates, or the whole "what country should I play for" saga with the
World Baseball Classic. Ugh. I get nauseous even thinking about
A-Rod. I'm just so happy he didn't end up as a Red Sock, and I hope
he never does. I love Jeter, Bernie, Rivera, and many other Yanks,
but "8-Rod" can rot in hell for all I care.

-Bismo.

Dave Bismo <bismo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:6mcoi21lg68g0tujkvgskp1e79jhqeq6c9@4ax.com:


I agree completely. He's the Peyton Manning of baseball with less
personality. Great numbers when there's little pressure, chokes when there
is. He's something like 4 for 43 in the last three playoff series. That's
about .070 BA. Any *pitcher* can hit better than that!

And yes, he's all about spin, like how much better he is than other players
because he works out six hours a day while other guys are taking their kids
to school. Remember that one? The examples of what a dick he is are
numerous. It's actually taken me a while to fully see it myself, because I
gave the guy the benefit of a doubt because I though he got jerked around
by the players' association when he tried to sign with the Sox. What a
blessing in disguise that was, because he's proven time and time again
since then that's hollow. Ho heart, no soul.

To paraphrase Lloyd Bentzen: He's no Derek Jeter.

Magnus, Robot Fighter wrote:





You underestimate the importance of the Slappy incident. It was
cheating, and it was bush league. And after, 8-Rod defended the move as
a "smart play" that "we almost got away with" (who--him and Torre?). He
then tried to convince the ump that he didn't mean to hit Bronson's
glove, it's just the way he runs--flapping his arms about wildly. Did
Torre come out and argue for 8-Rod? No. Would Jeter have done that? No
again.
He seems a lot like Barry Bonds in that he spend more time listening to
his agent and his trainers (and shrink) than he does listening to his
teammates or trying to play the game the right way. He, too appears to
be a highly paid loner, waiting for the next endorsement deal.
I, too am glad he's not a Red Sock. Can you picture him playing along
side Tek and Trot? I sure can't.

BTT
Let's Go, Red Sox!

Magnus, Robot Fighter wrote:

Putting aside all of the performance issues which are well documented
by others, he is just too smarmy for me. Everything he does or says
seems to be calculated to impress others, versus being real. I don't
even think he can be 'real'. And if his own teammates don't come to his
defense, why should we??

Dan D
Central NJ USA

"BT" <BTTalbot2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160567941.115051.313600@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
Actually, I think you and many have overestimated that incident. That
wasn't any more cheating than trying to "sell" a trap catch in the outfield
or a batter trying to claim he got brushed by a pitch. I honestly wasn't
sure that was illegal at first. It's legal to smash into a catcher to
dislodge the ball. Apparently it would have been legal if A-Rod nailed
Arroyo and knocked him out, making him drop the ball, but slapping the ball
was illegal...a somewhat fine distinction. Now please don't take this as
defending A-Rod. His behavior after the call was more reprehensible than
the act itself, he acted like an a-hole, as did Jeter, who, standing on
second, was nearly as demonstrative and helped rile up the crowd even more.
Maybe my recall sucks, but I thought Joe Torre also came out and vehemently
argued the call. Now maybe you can make a case for Jeter not seeing the
play, but Torre certainly should have had a good viewpoint from the dugout.
If I'm wrong about that, I apologize, but I don't think I am.

Guys come over from other clubs, who have had differences with each other.
They get over it. Exhibit A...Johhny Damon to NY. I think we, the fans
have far more problems with this crap than they do. Personality conflicts
exist anyway...some right on this club. These guys are professionals and as
long as a guy helps you win, they can usually be dealt with.

Yes A-Rod is an overpaid, obnoxious dink, but he is also a future hall of
famer and will bounce back from this "horrible" year. AVG .290 | HR 35 |
RBI 121 | OBP .392 | SLG .523. Yeah, yeah, horrible in the clutch,
whatever. I'll take those 121 RBI wherever they come. If you want only good
guys, you'll have trouble fielding a team. I don't find his behavior to be
worse than Manny's. Now I like Manny personally more than A--Rod, but then,
I don't know either man (nor will I ever) personally.

Dave Bismo wrote:

The New York Yankees have lost in the play-offs in each of the past 6
seasons. Interestingly, they had a series lead in the series that they
lost in each of those seasons. In 2001, they lost their last 2 games.
In '02, '03 and '06, they lost their last 3. In '05, they lost 3 of
their last 4. In 2004, obviously, they lost their last 4 games.
Jeter's numbers in the 19 games that ended the Yankees last 6 play-off
runs?

..280/.299/.439/.738. With 17 strikeouts and 3 walks, a 5.7
strikeout/walk ratio. Over those 6 regular seasons, he's hit
..312/.383/.459/.842 with a 1.7 strikeout/walk ratio.

In other words, when the Yankees have needed big post-season
performances the last 6 years, Jeter's come up small. Repeatedly.
Just like everyone else on the team. But somehow, he's still held up
as the model of a "clutch" performer - it's not his fault - it's
everyone else's. Everytime he does something "special" it's
confirmation for the Jeter-ites. Everytime he fails, it's a fluke.
Despite the fact that the latter occasions far outnumber the former.


The thing that ticked me off was the adulation for Jeter following the
2004 play-off loss to Boston. The media went to Jeter, he talked about
how his teammates maybe hadn't proved anything in NY yet, and the media
all nodded at his sagacity and candor. It was Matsui, and Rodriguez,
and Sheffield, and Giambi - they were the ones that screwed up. Jeter
had a worse series than any of them - he had the worst offensive series
of any Yankee regular, but somehow took none of the blame for the
debacle. "Oh, if only they were all clutch like Derek!" If everyone
else had played that series the way Jeter did, the Red Sox would have
won the first four games, instead of losing 3 first. But it wasn't HIS
fault - mercy, no!

Look, he's a great player. He's also probably the most overrated great
player in the history of the game. He got tremendous credit for the
work of his teammates early in his career, and has taken none of the
blame for the work of his teammates since. He started building his
"clutch" reputation on an umpiring mistake, and did have that great
defensive play when Giambi didn't slide, but his reputation for
clutchness is just like his reputation for defense - vastly overblown.

Magnus, Robot Fighter <pavelb1@cox.net> wrote:

That's half of it. The other half is that he's on the yankees.

Lyford venit, vidit, et dixit:

<snip>


And this is something I appreciate, Bismo. You recognize that
your response isn't "rational" (which is NOT meant as a slight,
I hope you understand) -- it's a reaction, unscientific, based
on impressions. It probably won't stop people like Lyford or
me from trying to convince you from time to time (we all have
our windmills at which we tilt), but at least it informs us
ahead of time of the futility of the attempt.

I don't believe in clutch players... but I believe I was one in
every sport I ever played seriously. I don't believe in fate...
but I look for tea leaves to read in every season that might
indicate that this IS the year. (Did you know the Red Sox played
the best National League team of the 40s, 60s, 70s, and 80s in
their World Series during that time? And it's entirely possible
they played the best one of the 00s, though there's still time
for that not to be the case. I think I'm remembering that right.
That was a depressing tea leaf to read in 2004, until I thought
that maybe this would be the year that made up for all of the
past shit -- the ALCS final result helped).

I guess what I'm saying is that I have the same sorts of emotional
responses to things, the same "need to find meaning" or "need to
tell a story" (reference to The Science of Discworld) in what
scientists might describe as random events in a possibly meaningless
universe. I myself try to fight that tendency (often), but I
understand why others might not, especially in regards to certain
stories. There's nothing wrong with that, even if myself try to
fight that tendency when I can observe myself doing it.


There are certainly plenty of Ortiz moments to this point.

Damn, I wish I could find my copy of The Science of Discworld. They
do a really good job of talking about what they might describe as a
human need to tell a story, to conclude that B happened because of
A, when B might merely have happened independently of A.


Plus or minus P*** R***, quite possibly for many of the same reasons.


And, in fact, Jeter's been the official Captain since June of 2003, and
the Yankees have not won the World Series since. I don't think that
means anything, but I'll note that the team has done less well when
officially following his leadership than they did when unofficially
allegedly doing so.


Indeed. He's a helluva player. He's still on a Hall of Fame track
(and may even be qualified, though I think if he goes Dale Murphy,
rather than gets hit by a bus, he's not necessarily in yet). But
I can think of few players against whom I more actively root than
Derek Jeter. Emotionally, for me, he's the anti-Mark Bellhorn.

Catch you later.
--Robert Machemer

--
Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | For each time he falls, he shall
Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!
IF1, 3, 9, 22: best film, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha)
"Can't complain; had his chance, and in modern parlance, blew it."

Lots of interesting analysis here on Jeter's 'clutchness'. I do wonder
why he slides by so much. The Teflon Yankee, for sure. Especially when,
as Captain, you would think he would come to his teammate's rescue when
he's getting pounded by the press and fans. But not a peep from him, as
far as I recall.

I know it's hard to compare stats given their positions in the lineup
but what the heck, I was curious......

Regular Season -
Jeter - .343, 97 RBI, 14 HR
A-Rod - .290, 121 RBI, 35 HR

2006 Post-Season -
Jeter - .500, 1 RBI, 1 HR
A-Rod - .071, 0 RBI, 0 HR

So even though Jeter wasn't 'clutch' in the playoffs this year, he was
on base all the time, compared to A-Rod...

Dan D
Central NJ USA